Social: What constitutes being a member of ISKCON?

Baker:In the local Hare Krishna magazine, a brahmacari wrote that the proper attitude of a devotee toward ISKCON should be:

"Ask not what ISKCON can do for you, ask only what you can do for ISKCON."

I don't disagree with this - any service to this great movement should be encouraged but also recognised and nurtured rather than unrealistic definitions imposed.

Let's avoid alienating participating devotees who are following the principles and chanting 16 and rendering some service (but may not be able to contribute 10% or may have been divorced etc.) - according to this proposal these devotees would NOT be connected to Srila Prabhupada in our disciplic succession and NOT a member of ISKCON.

Hopefully the final outcome will be more inclusive with multi-levelled membership as previously mentioned.

Baker:

ccd:It is a serious question, not a joke. the attitude should not be in one life. It should be now.

As in - Where, if not here? When, if not now? Who, if not I?

But then there is that not so small issue of blind faith ...

ccd:NoD 18 - it is technically known as hopefullness or ASA-bandha, based on this you have to arrive to samutkaNThA. Otherwise you can not be _actually_ attached to the holy names. In other words, without a hope (that you get if you are hopeless/hoep against hope) you will have no full determination (that is how you achieve Krisna consciousness) and thus you will not be steady in chanting.

I know the passage from NoD, you mentioned it before and I marked it with a post-it. And yes I've read it again just now.

But even a drop of this conviction is sufficient to protect you from the greatest fear, so do not worry, no pressure;-)

Until Sri Govinda Das comes in and tells me that I am "obviously ''cut to a pattern'' and will be unable to fully understand Krishna's devotees" - never ever ever, right, Sri Govinda Das, I should just forget about it all, right?

Looking at sri_govinda_das_dd's comments -- since she did it already (and called you names) you must feel under pressure to become a full member so that in the most important point of the discussion you could just pull out your big membership ID card and show it to her. Just in case. It should work. It could be that her local NZ GBC will not issue her one for her antivegan stand, so you will win the debate in a second. Is it right?
Instead of engaging devotees in various services leaders want to introduce restrictive ID cards; these days devotees have to look for a service instead of being asked to do this or that seva. It is actually proper for seniors to engage junior, not for junior to go around taking on service (like that bhakta cleverly puts it, "Ask not what ISKCON can do for you, ask only what you can do for ISKCON."). No it is "Ask not what ISKCON can do for you, ask only who can engage you in the service in ISKCON." If you are engaged in service, there is no issue of blind faith, because you are actually in the shelter. If you are not under a shelter, that means you need to have someone who can engage you in the service. That is what is lacking, not membership cards.

ccd:Looking at sri_govinda_das_dd's comments -- since she did it already (and called you names) you must feel under pressure to become a full member so that in the most important point of the discussion you could just pull out your big membership ID card and show it to her. Just in case. It should work. It could be that her local NZ GBC will not issue her one for her antivegan stand, so you will win the debate in a second. Is it right?

I agree, there is this sort of pressure and there is the hankering for a formalized solution to interpersonal conflicts.

If I told Sri Govinda das that I refuse to believe his (her?) unfavorable judgment of me and that I refuse to settle for it (or at least thought so to myself), would that not be disregard of a senior devotee?

sri_govinda_das: We would suggest that since bhakta paul howard....also known as Pandu das is unfavourable to his guru he is committing guru aparadha.everytime he portrays his ex-guru it is a bad light....hence he should bow down to his guru and beg for forgiveness....not use his spiritual name anymore .....but because he is not a ''sankirtan devotee''...unfortunately he is not so sincere....he thinks his opinion is valid,when it is up to krishna .....krishna will adjust things personally in this dynamic spiritual society.He does not tolerate offensive behaviour to his guru's,because they have sacrificed everything for him.Pandu das has been around for 15 odd years.....but is unable to appreciate his guru ....who took his sins,to give him the chance to advance spiritually...He has no idea.........so it is very differcult to understand the mind and heart of a sincere devotee...my bhaktine baker.

You just can't let it rest, can you? You say "portrays his ex-guru in a bad light," but all the events I described actually happened. Does truth not matter to you at all?

I started a blog back in 2005 to document my experiences pursuing Krishna consciousness. At that time things were going very well, but a few months later the alleged child molester was invited to Gita-nagari and lavishly glorified by two big gurus, and things went bad in my relationships with BTS's disciples as a result of it. During that time, I kept documenting the events, considering it all an important part of my experiences trying to become Krishna conscious. When a local BTS disciple discovered my blog, someone called BMS, and he in turn called me and ordered me to stop blogging or he would stop my brahmana training. He had told me previously that he doesn't read the Internet, and in this phone call he gave no indication that he had personally read anything I had written on my blog, so he apparently had judged the situation based on hearsay only.

I was under the impression that adhering to the truth is the chief quality of a brahmana, and two days after this phone call was when I had the meeting where I found out that BMS had lied to me the previous week. So within about ten day's time, BMS lied to me, ordered me to stop my honest documentation of my experiences in ISKCON, and then his lie was revealed along with a conspiracy by several brahmanas who had also directly lied to me. These events thoroughly spoiled my desire for brahmana initiation, since it was obviously a tool of mundane politics; but you say I'm the one who is offensive. Man, you are sick in the head.

Apparently sri_govinda_das thinks that to be a member of ISKCON one has to sacrifice his intelligence to suit the perverted cult agenda.

It reminds me of an "initiation" we had at camp when I was a kid, chanting "o wha tafu liam" repeatedly until enlightenment brought realization of the mantra's meaning. You should try it.

P.S. I've been a contributer here for years, and I like coming here. I feel like I have something to offer and plenty to learn. But if I have to continue putting up with the kind of abuse I've been getting from you and sometimes a few others, I'm going to have to call it quits. I've heard from Srila Prabhupada that one gets faith from associating with devotees, but the kind of association I sometimes get here, such as your quoted paragraph above, subverts my faith and makes me feel like I'm just not meant for devotional service. Is that the kind of influence you want to be?

deena:sri_govinda_das, can you please start another question about whether or not Pandu is an offender or not? Then you can discuss it to your full satisfication without having to bring the topic into every conversation you participate in. This will also help to keep the discussion focused on the question at hand.

Second that.

"i have read over the GBC memo and you make the following adjustment regarding membership charges. the comparison of india to that of usa is not the exchange value of rupees and dollars in the bank, but it is according to the purchasing power or manifest value, so practically one rupee is equal to one dollar by this calculation. therefore, simply change the sign from Rs. to $ and set the figure for life membership at $ 1,111, donor membership at $ 555, and suscriber membership at $ 222. an ordinary member should pay only $ 5.00, which covers one year subscription to our magazine. another thing is that WE WELCOME LIFE MEMBERS TO PARTICIPATE FULLY IN ALL OUR TEMPLE PROGRAMS ANYWHERE THEY MAY TRAVEL AND THEY MAY STAY IN THE TEMPLE WHERE THEY ARE VISITING."

letter to rupanuga, november 13, 1970

The 'life member' isn't the topic of this thread, it was introduces somewhere in the middle.

> who does exactly what he is told otherwise, regardless of it's scriptural authenticity,

Where's that suggested...?

Janmastami das: Read the original article here - http://news.iskcon.com/node/2386/2009-11-15/iskcon_leaders_grapple_defining_who_member - the discussion is on ISKCON membership and not Life Membership, although the structured and clear cut nature of LM is appreciated :-)

a) LIFE MEMBER receives all our books thus far published as well as all future publications, as well as a lifetime subscription to Back to Godhead. he is also free to visit any of our temples, take prasdam there and stay there if he likes. price is 1,111 rupees (7 1/2 rupees per dollar).

b) DONOR MEMBER receives all our literature thus far published as well as a lifetime subscription to Back to Godhead. price is 555 rupees.

c) SUBSCRIBER MEMBER receives a lifetime subscription to Back to Godhead. price is 222 rupees.

d) COMMON MEMBER receives a one year subscription to back to Godhead. price is 33 rupees.

None of these categories requires any spiritual standards but some of these people may also fall into the catergory of "ISKCON member" if they meet whatever spiritual requirements the GBC decide on. If you read the article by SRS then you will see what the discussion is here.

If any of you ever read Srila Prabhupada's Direction of Management from 1970 which is the cornerstone of what is basically ISKCON's constitution you would know that the GBC that has been operating since 1977 is not legitimate and therefore what they say or decide is meaningless. That would mean that since 1977 ISKCON is operating without a head - or worse -- it was hijacked and is no longer the organization that Srila Prabhupada established. It's gone, my friends. I hate to be the one to break this news to you but it's gone. Due to the inconceivable potency of Srila Prabhupada and his books somehow or other people who are desiring and deserving continue to come into contact with him through his vani presence; i.e. his books, tapes, teachings .... and this is the amazing arrangement of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. I have hopes that someday ISKCON will get back on track but I don't think it will happen in my lifetime and I have at best another ten or fifteen years more to go. The whole arrangement that's going on is unauthorized -- such as the electing of gurus (the irony is that the DOM states that every three years the temple presidents vote in entirely new GBC members -- not that permanent GBC members vote in initiating spiritual masters). My godbrothers who are running the show have run amok and thsoe of you who have joined the organization post 1977 -- I apologize on their behalf and for myself as well for allowing it to happen. Oh, I protested and tried to stop it back in '78 but the power base was already consolidated. The zonal guru insanity had already become institutionalized and anybody who spoke out against it was forced out. Tamal, Ramesvara, Bhavananda, Bhagavan, Hrdayananda, Jayatirtha -- these were all my good friends and godbrothers. I am senior to most of them. I watched as they became swept up in the madness. It was surreal. It was a horrifying nightmare. My beloved ISKCON was gone. Gone!!!! That's why within five years -- by the early 80's practically all of us left the society in the hands of our criminal Godbrothers. Those of us who didn't leave were forced to go if we didn't go along with their lies. Do you think Ravindra Swarup single-handedly made it all better with his papers and all their meetings in Mayapur? They made it worse. They had gone thousands of miles off the track but instead of honestly going back to the beginning, admitting to their godbrothers and sisters what they had done and apologized for it all -- especially at the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada -- instead of doing the right thing they concocted this and that detour and created a new batch of lies to feed the troops and bedazzle onlookers. They were putting bandaids on a body that was bleeding to death.

You poor misled folks who are talking ISKCON this and ISKCON that and who is a member and who isn't -- it's pitiful. Oh .. and that guy who keeps screaming about how he is a Sankirtana ISKCON devotee so he is hot stuff and knows how to diagnose problems and rip and tear and blah blah blah. I have never heard such bluster in my life coming from an ignorant neophyte. He's dispensing all sorts of advice here on this website and presenting himself as some authority and yet his head is empty but his ego is filled to the brim and overflowing. I'm talking about you sri govinda das. I'm again asking you to refrain from speaking and writing for at least a year. I'd really like to make it five or ten but I doubt you can keep quiet for even one day.

Such a sad state of affairs. All I can say is educate yourselves and stop throwing the aparadhi weapon all over the place. It's childish. The only reason I started participating on this website is while surfing I saw the topic about Sampradaya Sun "traficking in aparadha" and then I come here and see more insulting and offensive things being written about Srila Prabhupada than I have ever come actross in a website that claims it is Vaisnava in nature.

DIRECTION OF MANAGEMENT
I, the undersigned, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, disciple of Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaj Prabhupada, came in the United States in 1965 on September 18th for the purpose of starting Krishna Consciousness Movement. For one year I had no shelter. I was travelling in many parts of this country. Then in 1966, July, I incorporated the Society under the name and style the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, briefly ISKCON. The lawyer was Mr. J. Goldsmith. Gradually the Society increased, and one after another branches were opened. Now we have got thirty-four (34) branches enlisted herewith: —

(list omitted - lack of space)

As we have increased our volume of activities, now I think a Governing Body Commission (hereinafter referred to as the GBC) should be established. I am getting old, 75 years old, therefore at any time I may be out of the scene, therefore I think it is necessary to give instruction to my disciples how they shall manage the whole institution. They are already managing individual centers represented by one president, one secretary and one treasurer, and in my opinion they are doing nice. But we want still more improvement in the standard of Temple management, propaganda for Krishna Consciousness, distribution of books and literatures, opening of new centers and educating devotees to the right standard. Therefore, I have decided to adopt the following principles and I hope my beloved disciples will kindly accept them. There was a meeting in S.F. , and many presidents of the centers were present. In that meeting it was resolved that an ad hoc committee be set up to form the constitution which is taken into consideration. My duty was to first appoint twelve (12) persons to my free choice amongst my disciples and I do it now and their names are as follows: —

(names omitted - lack of space)

These personalities are now considered as my direct representatives. While I am living they will act as my zonal secretaries and after my demise they will be known as Executors.

I have already awarded Sannyas or the renounced order of life to some of my students and they have also got very important duties to perform in this connection. The Sannyasis will travel to our different centers for preaching purpose as well as enlightening the members of the center for spiritual advancement. The Sannyasis will suggest for opening new centers in suitable places and the GBC will take action on it.

As was stipulated by the ad hoc committee, the function of the GBC will be as follows with particulars: —

PARTICULARS OF THE GBC
"The purpose of the Governing Body Commission is to act as the instrument for the execution of the Will of His Divine Grace. And further,

1. The GBC oversees all operations and management of ISKCON, as it receives direction from Srila Prabhupada, and His Divine Grace has the final approval in all matters.
2. His Divine Grace will select the initial 12 members of the GBC. In the succeeding years the GBC will be elected by a vote of all Temple presidents, who will vote for 8 from a ballot of all Temple presidents, which may also include any secretary who is in charge of a Temple. Those 8 with the greatest number of votes will be members for the next term of GBC. Srila Prabhupada will choose to retain four commissioners. In the event of Srila Prabhupada's absence, the retiring members will decide which four will remain.
3. The commissioners will serve for a period of 3 years, and they may be re-elected at the end of this period.
4. The chairman is elected by the GBC for each meeting. He has no veto power, but in even of a vote tie, his vote will decide. The same will apply for votes cast by mail between regular meetings.
5. Throughout the year, each of the commissioners will stay with His Divine Grace for one month at a time and keep the other commissioners informed of His Divine Grace's instructions.
6. The primary objective of the GBC is to organize the opening of new Temples and to maintain the established Temples.
7. Advice will be given by the GBC in cases of real property purchases, which will be in the name of ISKCON, INC. (Trucks or other vehicles will be purchased in the name of the local president).
8. Removal of a Temple president by the GBC requires support by the local Temple members.
9. The GBC has no jurisdiction in the publication of manuscripts, which will be handled by a separate committee; profits to be returned to Srila Prabhupada."

So far my books are concerned, I am setting up a different body of management known as the BHAKTIVEDANTA BOOK TRUST. The trustees of this body are also members of the GBC, but their function is not dependent on the GBC. ISKCON Press was created for the exclusive publication of my books and literatures and should be continued in that way.

During my absence no one shall live in my apartment.

Date July 28th, 1970
Los Angeles, California 90034

International Society for Krishna Consciousness=Consciousness of Sri Guru Srila Prabhupada and Sri Krishna

If you are very greedy, very eager to have sadhu-sanga, sat-sanga, the association of grantha-bhagavata and bhakta-bhagavata, first of all you have to give up duhsanga or asat-sanga. What is association? One may say that to come in close proximity to a person is association. But that is not the fact. Association takes place in the mind, in the heart. As long as there are desires for material enjoyment, desires for liberation, desires for mystic perfections, and other desires in your heart, then you are doing asat-sanga. Even though you may come and sit here, and even though you may be staying in the temple, if all these thoughts and desires are in your mind, you are doing asat-sanga, duhsanga. You are not doing real sadhu-sanga.
If your heart is not crying how to have the real association of grantha-bhagavata and bhakta-bhagavata, then you cannot get their association. Even if you don't go anywhere, if you just sit in one place, still you will have duhsanga. The example is Saubhari Muni. He entered into the water of the Yamuna and stayed there for thousands of years, but still he had duhsanga. In our minds there are hundreds and thousands of desires giving duhsanga to us. Is your stupid mind thinking about Krishna? Is your stupid mind thinking about the instructions of sadhu-guru-vaisnava? Is your stupid mind thinking about the instructions of Mahaprabhu and His dear devotees? If the stupid mind is not thinking these things, then you are doing duhsanga, asat-sanga. You are not doing sadhu-sanga at all. Externally or apparently you are staying in the temple but you are really doing asat-sanga.

We should think about it: Are these thoughts pleasing to Krishna? Are these thoughts pleasing to guru and Gauranga? Krishna gave His most confidential instruction, man-mana bhava - "Only think of Me" [Bg. 18.65]. Sriman Mahaprabhu gave the same instruction:

ki sayane ki bhojane, kiba jagarane aharnisa cinta krsna, balaha vadane

Whether asleep, awake, or eating your meals, think only of Lord Krishna day and night. With your mouths speak only of Him. [Cb. madhya 28.28]

Recent webcast discussion on ISKCON membership - Aniruddha dasa, temple president of Melbourne is talking initially....Sitapati dasa and Bhakta Dave discuss the subject in between calls http://www.atmayogi.com/files/podcast/ISKCON_membership_podcast_Dec_5_B.mp3

ccd:Is there any indication of feedback submitted to GBC?

Would like to see that published ;-)

I think the feedback can be generated here in a form of a list: you can start with a point in a formal English and I will add a point or two, maybe Veda can add a point or two and we can then just forward it to GBC sub committee. Just start with what you think -- what is your first bullet item?

Not a bad idea...not sure what my first bullet would be - possibly to define the requirements for a "member" of ISKCON - and suggest that there should be a tier system to outline different levels of membership.

Take the country of France as an example of a society with members. (A better example than France is the Catholic Church. ISKCON is not like a country like France but it is like a Church like the Catholic church.)
What do French people have in common?
constitution
(ISKCON as yet has no constitution.)

Laws
(ISKCON does have some of it's own laws but also has to follow any host country's laws in each place where it's centers and devotees are situated.)
Language (ISKCON has no common language.)

Education
(Naturally a Church engages in spiritual education. As for other education that varies according to the country where centers and devotees live.)

Taxation (Since ISKCON is a Church and a voluntary organization there is no forced taxation. Donations are welcomed but not forced. So there is no taxation in the general sense of the word in everyday use.)

I(n)O(ther)W(ords): French people have in common: primary rights and obligations.

(Actually members of a church organization which is a better description of ISKCON than a country also have some rights and obligations.) What do French people have that is not common to all, but is individual? Faith (Surely devotees of ISKCON have the same faith, they do not have individual faiths. All are Vaisnavas.)

Ethnicity (ISKCON devotees have many ethnicities.)

>borokrsnadasa: SR Swami is on fire. http://www.sivaramaswami.com/2010/02/13/what-is-iskcon-and-who-is-a-member/

The Maharaja obviously has some specific and strong views about who is an ISKCON member and who is part of the "The Hare Krsna Movement – believers"...if these prerequisites for membership are used by the GBC, will they remove those "members" who don't follow all the rules?

For example, a devotee (who will remain unamed) is currently occupying a top level managerial position in one of our most important centres in ISKCON and is doing very valuable work on an important project. He recently fell down with someone else's wife (this devotee is already married with children)...will the GBC remove this devotee and condemn him as a non-member? That would surprise me...that is a gross and obvious example. The question for me is....who is going to police these standards to make sure every member is following them? The membership police? I think this will be unworkable as presented by SRS.
Maybe SOME of his ideas can be used to form a definition, certainly not all of them and certainly not in a way that makes others feel inferior by being relegated to the tag "The Hare Krsna Movement – believers."

I think what would be helpful is to define a tier system of membership (as they do for Life Membership) rather than a black and white approach - e.g., lives outside, follows the regs and chants 16 rounds, is totally loyal to Srila Prabhupada and contributes service to recognised ISKCON projects....this could be defined maybe as Level 2 membership.

Here is SRS's proposed guidelines for membership (taken directly from his powerpoint presentation from the above link):

* GBC is their ultimate managerial and spiritual authority
* They must be connected to ISKCON’s line of authority
* They accept initiation only from member of ISKCON (Chant 16 rds and follow 4 regs)‏
* They do not divorce
* They give 10% of income to the Society
* Subject to the disciplinary and judicial system of ISKCON

Summary: The laws and bylaws of ISKCON determine devotees’ values and conduct in all aspects of their lives: work (varëa), social status (äçrama), spiritual practice and spiritual aspiration.

Here are the ISKCON members rights:

* Officially accepted as connected to Srila Prabhupäda, in the parämparä and Gaudiya Sampradäya.
* Reside, serve or be employed in temples, farms etc and also engage in leadership positions from Nama-hatta leader to GBC secretary.
* Can perform ceremonies and worship for members and in temples (give class, worship deities, become diska/siksa guru, do samskäras etc)‏
* Enjoy samskäras offered by Society (birth, marriage, initiation, sannyäsa etc)‏
* Be part of ISKCON initiatives eg: Chamber of commerce, Mäyäpura residence, gurukula/education, co-operatives etc.

Summary: Members enjoy benefits of membership only on the basis of having accepted the obligations that comes along it, membership.

It is an honor being an Iskcon devotee, but at the same time, it should remain an open system, just the way Prabhupada created it. Who thinks that he is more intelligent than Prabhupada? If there is someone, let them raise hands.

Let's be honest, is true isn't it, that it is not about who is 100% member, who is 75% member and who is 50% member. We have no problem with those.

The reason some authorities in ISKCON are trying to change the system established by Prabhupada (initiated members, aspiring bhaktas and life-members) is because of splinter groups, because they can not lead and because Prabhupada's system does not pay the salaries of temple presidents and GBCs. However according to academics who study our membership it is conclusive, "When people defect from religious or secular movement-organisations for political rather than ideological reasons, they remain members of the movement." Rochford, 1989, p. 175. What actually happens is that joining this Prabhupada's movement was made as easy as possible by Prabhupada (while the standard was very high). The standard of surrender was lowered after his departure, system of the levels initiatedmember-bhakta-lifemember was destroyed in many places by placing all the married man into a 'congregational' category. If you ask me it is a different movement now, it is congregational movement now, but it used to be temple-life movement for everyone, who became an initiated-member. Prabhupada would even let his married sannyasis to live in the temple. To be honest they should just continue the life-membership program that Prabhupada started, recognize that the member of ISKCON is truly an "initiated member" that Prabhupada had defined and instead of inventing their own systems, just reintroduce what he has done, be humble.

I do not feel very comfortable with the change proposed by Shivarama Swami. Most devotees are not too. If you study what is actually happening in Hungary where he did it already, you will know. Prabhupada disciples are marginalized there, they are 'outside' devotees, not to be associated with. The devotees of a different class 'temple devotees' are usually young and puffed up, and there is a prohibition for the children who attend the gurukula to play with children of 'outside' devotees. It is really a sad, semi-nazy oriented system that Shivarama Swami is trying to implement everywhere now. How bad should it become if we accept it? How tragic.

Instead we need to pay attention to how Prabhupada set it up, high standards, welcoming and open membership, compassion to those who could not walk the line and place for everyone on the same level with absolute respect to spiritual leadership, not membership stamps or salaries. Why is Prabhupada's model is not good for you (of for them)? Why invent new things? Who is your guru Prabhupada or someone else?

The reality is of course that managerial control over the membership is gradually replacing initial spiritual control and zeal, that wes set by personal high example. One model is based a border that one needs to cross (rigid borders model) to get a 'membership ticket' and another is an open membership that can be illustrated as a magnetic field, magnet's field will attract others that surround it, and there are not rigid borders to that field, but aspiration for initiation, second initiation, service etc. But the standard needs to be set by a personal example of following, not by an 'external criteria'.

And how the 'tier" system will eliminate the elitist attitude? Why can't the initiated-member model work for those who live outside of the temple?

Here is the simple practical definition of how initiated-member system works for anyone (very late conversation in 1976 -- the system was well established 76):

Mahäàça: There's only five first initiations. Those ladies, I told them to wait some more time. Those ladies, I told them to wait for some more time because they were still drinking tea and coffee until yesterday.

Prabhupäda: No, if they promise they will give up, then we can give.

Mahäàça: I already told them, "You please..." They said they will give up but I said that you...

Prabhupäda: No, if they promise you can give.

Mahäàça: But, they are waiting, what shall I tell them now? I just now told them...

Prabhupäda: No, tell them that, "If you promise from today you will give up..."

Mahäàça: They promised.

Prabhupäda: Then we shall give it.

Mahäàça: All five of them?

Prabhupäda: Oh, yes. If they have promised, we shall give. Simply you don't break promise. You have promised—do it. That's all.

Mahäàça: I'll tell them. Another thing was those, what is, I don't know what is the position of ladies being initiated. They are young girls. They may get married. They may get married to someone outside the society.

Prabhupäda: But she can chant and observe the rules and regulations—what is that.

Mahäàça: Even if her husband does not follow?

Prabhupäda: That does not matter. It is individual.

Ha ha. (just for the fun of it) How would your distinguish the inquisitive and a lady who is searching for knowledge of the Absolute? I guess a color of sari?

Kaunteya's presentation is sensible. http://kaunteyadas.posterous.com/iskcon-membership-what-i-wrote-to-gbc-discuss

Sitapati (as usual I may add) is confused a bit. http://www.atmayogi.com/node/3640 while he asked the right question at first.

Probably the best questions asked are here http://nytsanga.blogspot.com/2010/03/membership.html Why artificially accentuate this distinction with member and non member status? Will we end up like to Mormons where only members in good standing can enter the Church?

Of course for some reason they all forget that Prabhupada already defined the membership in such a way as to avoid many problems and to ensure all vaisnava groups stay together.

Interesting as a matter of purification and punishment Prabhupada gave sannyasa to some disciples and sent them out to preach. Another method of punishment for a sannyasi was to sent them to China for example. Out of four disciples that underwent expulsion from ISKCON some were given bhiksa initiation (after expulsion) and were told not to preach in ISKCON. I guess Prabhupada was very powerful and I really think we should learn from him. Nitai joined Radha-kunda babajis (following Jagannatha das) Nitai das was active in 1976. Interesting that Prabhupada would only expel people for serious deviation, and then use them anyway in the service and keeping them engaged, in a way they remained members but not in direct association with others. Yes you can give example of expulsion of Jiva Goswami from Vrindavana too.

ccd:Why artificially accentuate this distinction with member and non member status?

I don't think it is artificial. From my own experience, clarity about membership status would be useful, a practical guideline for people to have a better idea as to how to behave toward eachother, especially for the newcomers.

I would like to know my place.

Instead, I am all too often met with expectations and assumptions, from devotees considering me a meat-eater to considering me exclusively devoted to this path. And clarifying those expectations and assumptions - and I have to clarify them, if I don't wish to end up in messy relationships - is a real drudgery, which usually leads to just more trouble.

Will we end up like to Mormons where only members in good standing can enter the Church?

I really think ISKCON should be more openly elitist. (Of course, as they say, "If you wish to act like a star, you better give a star effort".)
Without such a sense of elitism, people become too comfortable, take things too easily, take so much for granted, assume too much familiarity too soon.

Harvard students may seem stuck-up - but they are not lazy. Any institution or organization - from universities to the army - has to maintain a sense of elitism, and openly at that, if it wishes to maintain a level of quality and relevance. A hippies spirit has no place here.

(And I apologize, I didn't mean to thank you for that particular post, but my finger somehow clicked too much to the left. Must be subconscious. :)

Thanks for the thanks anyway. (Should I do the same on your post?)