Is there any official ISKCON policy on it's senior members associating with NM?

dweller-in-peace:

Very nice lecture but why is he wearing mask? Looks like he is a Jaina Muni.

Swine Flu?

Advanced as he is, Radhanath Swami is not on platform of Uttama. Neither is Narayanna Maharaja.

Ananta-koti Vaisnava vrnda ki

Yes,of course neither r Ascendency. Great souls none the less. Especially Radhanath swami since he is practically completely under the shelter of SP to very high degree in my estimation. I was very fortunate to be in his personal association only yesterday along with HH Mahavishnu swami and Urmila Devi dasi. Happy Days! :o)

Iskcon Guru vrnda ki

Nrsingha:

Yes,of course neither r Ascendency. Great souls none the less. Especially Radhanath swami since he is practically completely under the shelter of SP to very high degree in my estimation. I was very fortunate to be in his personal association only yesterday along with HH Mahavishnu swami and Urmila Devi dasi. Happy Days! :o)

Iskcon Guru vrnda ki

You're not Nrsingha-Dave from Ireland are you?

Sorry if you aren't, that's not an uncommon name.

The friend added, "I am his friend. He has left all material sense gratification and keeps only my association. You will be able to realize his greatness by conversing with him. He once asked me a question about a confidential exchange between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Srila Ramananda Raya found in the Caitanya-caritamrta. I told him that only Gaura-Kishora dasa Babaji could properly answer his question, and certainly no-one else. We have already been to see many learned persons in this area, and yet we cannot come to an agreement about the meaning of this conversation. We think that only you are able to explain it properly."

After the introduction was complete, Srila Babaji Maharaja replied, "I will tell you a process by which you can understand the conclusion of this conversation. But before trying to understand these confidential topics between Lord Caitanya and Srila Ramananda Raya, you should renounce the association of this rascal imposter (the land-owner) and take shelter of a pure devotee of the Lord. You should hear the Caitanya-caritamrta one-hundred times in the association of authentic devotees of the Lord. In this way, being absorbed in devotional ecstasy, you will be able to realize the purport of these conversations. At the present moment all the devotees here want to perform congregational chanting of the Holy Name of the Lord. We don't have time to discuss any other topics."

Having spoken thus, Srila Gaura-Kishora dasa Babaji Maharaja very loudly requested everyone to perform Harinama sankirtana. Everyone then began to congregationally chant the Lord's Holy Names. After hearing the statement of Srila Babaji Maharaja, the proud landlord and his friend immediately left that place.

Later that evening, when almost everyone had left, some members of the assembly commented to Srila babaji Maharaja, "That very learned land-owner was absorbed in devotional ecstasy. We could not see any manifestation of material consciousness in him. He was devoid of worldly consciousness." Another person sitting nearby, who had always heard that Srila Gaura-Kishora dasa Babaji Maharaja was very straightforward with everyone, inquired, "That person was so immersed in various loving devotional ecstasies that he could not even walk by his own efforts. How is it that you can say he was not on the highest platform of bhakti?"

Very nice maah prabhu....

To be member of Aryan family not cheap thing. Only by adoption for Nitya-baddha.
Ysvt.

Mein Fuhrer..! 8-l

Nrsingha:

Advanced as he is, Radhanath Swami is not on platform of Uttama. Neither is Narayanna Maharaja.

[p]
Srila Prabhupada himself advised his disciples to take instruction from both the Late B.R. Sridhara Maharaja and Narayan Maharaj, it seems that some of his disciples have taken his instructions seriously and made further advancement and others have not.[/p]

[p]
Both of these personalities are considered topmost Gaudia Vaisnavas by Srila Prabhupada himself, I will not hazard at a guess as to what level they are on and I feel it would not only be very offensive, but foolish to the extreme to try and some of these people you are talking about maybe direct and personal associates of the Lord.[/p]

[p]
As nice as Maah's cut and pasted or copied story of Gaura Kishor Das Babajis story is, i don't find it sound and appropriate advice for general devotees, why?[/p]

[p]
>> By associating with uttama, one gets intelligence to discriminate as seeing the sun one automatically can compare and see who is a glow worm.[/p]

[p]
So this means in the beginning when one has no association with Uttama he has no intelligence to discriminate? Then how will one find an Uttama to associate with?
And simple analogies like the Sun vs the glow worm are just that very simple, understanding the heart of another living entity is more deeper than this thread could even touch on.[/p]

[p]
>>The Sri Guruvastakam Prayers and the book Babaji Maharaja Two Beyond Duality are ideal references[/p]

[p]
Books will only describe external symptoms of advanced vaisnavas and like Gaur Kishor Das Babaji points out, one could easily read these and display the external symptoms without any internal change.[/p]

[p]
Maah's example is where a topmost devotee/acharya Gaur Kishor Das Babaji detects someone imitating the symptoms of bhava and yet the devotees around him could not detect that. A better example would be where a Kanista devotee detected another devotee to be Uttama, all shastric examples appear to indicate one has to be on that level to know if someone else is on that level[/p]

[p]
So what to do? Take the advice of Srila Prabhupada, he would not advise his disciples to take advice from Gaudia Vaisnavas if they were not topmost.[/p]

manasi_seva:

[quote]

Nrsingha:

Advanced as he is, Radhanath Swami is not on platform of Uttama. Neither is Narayanna Maharaja.

[p]
Srila Prabhupada himself advised his disciples to take instruction from both the Late B.R. Sridhara Maharaja and Narayan Maharaj, it seems that some of his disciples have taken his instructions seriously and made further advancement and others have not.[/p]

[/quote]

Can you please provide the quotes from Prabhuapda that he advised this?

Yes I have heard the all the arguments for and against NM and what Srila Prabhupada said and what he didn't say.

If Iskcon had carried on as Srila Prabhupada had wanted then there would be no need to even look outside of Iskcon. However Srila Prabhupada's agenda was sidelined, so now we must take responsibility for our own spiritual lives and choose the association we want, and Iskcon is fond of always saying "We are non sectarian" which actually means we are not limited to a particular Institution.

How do we define Senior? is it position?, rank?, GBC title? Guru Title? a rubber stamp? Well that can't be right because many of those that were appointed had these senior titles and are either no longer around or fell down and in some cases with heinous crimes surrounding them. So as far as I am concerned its your life! You can either choose to get second rate advice from non-qualified people or you can seek out those that are qualified.

I left Iskcon many moons ago, as an individual jiva I have the right to choose who I will take my diksa and association from, who I see as being senior and I will base that on Guru, Sadhu, Shastra just as Srila Prabhupada taught us and not on what some committee has voted on. The Bhagavad Gita tells us to seek out a genuine spiritual master and inquire from him submissively, which means its person/acharya based not institution based.

Thanks to Srila Prabhupada and the great legacy he left us (not in his institution, assets or buildings) but in his instructions and his books we cannot be cheated or deceived as long as we read his instructions/books and follow them. We also need to apply some intelligence because some of the instructions (letters and personal talks) were based on time, place and circumstance and like I said, I believe the Iskcon of today is not the same Iskcon as when Srila Prabhupada was here.

The times have changed and the circumstances are now different, there are some very advanced Gaudia Vaisnavas out there and I see no reason to be sectarian about this. Of course if ones faith is so delicate that they feel it might be shattered or ruined if one listens to anyone outside of Iskcon then dont!

Its your choice, but remember you do have a choice.

manasi_seva:

Thanks to Srila Prabhupada and the great legacy he left us (not in his institution, assets or buildings) but in his instructions and his books we cannot be cheated or deceived as long as we read his instructions/books and follow them.

There are no "Srila Prabhupada books" without ISKCON, ever. It is basically ISKCON who holds the copyrights, who preserves and publishes the texts, videos and other media. There is no access to Srila Prabhupada's legacy without the mercy of ISKCON.
[br] Just because one holds a book with Srila Prabhupada's texts in one's hands, thinking "Oh, this doesn't have anything to do with ISKCON anymore, I am holding this book in my hands now" - then in my opinion, this is just shortsighted and miserly.[br]

[br]I do not think it is fair to read a book, to take advice from it, but ignore, be dismissive or even hostile toward how the book came to be published and distributed.

In regards to the above comments by Kesavaya, these statements are bold and inaccurate.
Certainly SNM is a Vaisnava, elderly and advanced, and offering of respects is essential. Yet there is a difference between a general offering of respects and the kind of intimate exchange suggested at by Kesavaya. We are recommended to offer respects to everyone, even Mayavadi sannyasis, what then to someone who has dedicated the majority of life to RadhaKrishna seva, even if there are misunderstandings between other Vaisnavas. If an influencial Vaisnava comes close to your temple then what is the problem to offer respects, even if to just understand the program of such a person
.
RM has a reputation of highly developed Vaisnava etiquette and being able to offer respects to all, but not at the cost of loyalty to Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON considerations.
Those who are close to Srila Radhanath Swami are in disagreement with these statements of Kesavaya, and also uncertain of his identity. If one actually understands RM and accepts him as Guru then he would not make such bold statements understanding the displeasing result that would be obtained.
If it was so true that RM regularly visits and takes siksha, then would we not have heard about it before, considering the gossip rate with this internet facility?

Baker:

[quote]

manasi_seva:

Thanks to Srila Prabhupada and the great legacy he left us (not in his institution, assets or buildings) but in his instructions and his books we cannot be cheated or deceived as long as we read his instructions/books and follow them.

There are no "Srila Prabhupada books" without ISKCON, ever. It is basically ISKCON who holds the copyrights, who preserves and publishes the texts, videos and other media. There is no access to Srila Prabhupada's legacy without the mercy of ISKCON.
[br] Just because one holds a book with Srila Prabhupada's texts in one's hands, thinking "Oh, this doesn't have anything to do with ISKCON anymore, I am holding this book in my hands now" - then in my opinion, this is just shortsighted and miserly.
[br]I do not think it is fair to read a book, to take advice from it, but ignore, be dismissive or even hostile toward how the book came to be published and distributed.[/quote][br]
This is backwards, there is no ISKCON without Srila Prabhupada's books. There is no access to Krisna's mercy without the legacy of Srila Prabhupada's books. ISKCON has no purpose without these books, it's main purpose is to distribute them.

VEDA:

If you glorify the legacy of SP, why don't you follow his instructions on not taking siksa outside ISKCON?

[p]
Prabhupada's final statements about Srila Sridhara Maharaja: there is Srila Prabhupada's letter to Hrsikesa (1969):[/p]

[p]
"I can refer you to one who is most highly competent of my godbrothers. This is B. R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my siksa-guru, so what to speak of the benefit that you can have from his association."[/p]

[p]
Srila Prabhupada repeatedly tried to get Srila Sridhara Maharaja to come to his temple in Mayapur (see letter to Srila Sridhara Maharaja in 1976 and Room Conversation in 1977--excerpts in chapter one). In the 1977 Room Conversation, Srila Prabhupada offers to build Srila Sridhara Maharaja a house at the Mayapur temple so Srila Sridhara Maharaja can preach to Srila Prabhupada's disciples-imploring Sridhara Maharaja six times to please do so.[/p]

[p]
Clearly Srila Prabhupada was non-sectarian he invited his god brother B.R. Sridhar Maharaja into his own house to preach to his own disciples.[/p]

[p]Sectarian : meaning Of, relating to, or characteristic of a sect.

- Adhering or confined to the dogmatic limits of a sect or denomination; partisan.
- Narrow-minded; parochial.
- A member of a sect.
One characterized by bigoted adherence to a factional viewpoint.[/p]

[p]
Read it all here: http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/affection_unabridged/oag_a_5.html[/p]

VEDA:

B.R. Sridhar M. a B.V. Narayan M. were already discussed - they were specific cases.

See a compilation of opposite quotes in Sivarama Swami's book "Siksa Outside ISKCON?" and then you can accuse Prabhupada of being sectarian.

[p]
VEDA this is the last time I will respond to your imbecilic questions. Why? because you don't read anything thoroughly before you respond and if you do then you fail to comprehend and I guess the fact that you are an ardent admirer of SGD says it all.[/p]

[p]
What did I say about Srila Prabhupada? "Clearly Srila Prabhupada was non-sectarian" and then I give a meaning of what Sectarian is beneath that, highlighting the difference and how NON-SECTARIAN Srila Prabhupada was in his mood! Understand it now? or should I break it down further and use more simpler words for you?[/p]

[p]
If you cannot even read plain english and comprehend a few basic english words then you disqualify yourself from this discussion. Better you close your mouth, stop typing, read! and in your case read many many many times over and then take a few days to think it over. I guess that word knucklehead is starting to become very appropriate for you[/p]

[p]
As I said I have responsibility for my own spiritual life, I'm not interested in some rubber stamped Iskcon swami's opinions. Personal discussions and quotes are just that they are personal and quite often given in a time, place and circumstance setting. Whatever Srila Prabhupadas instructions were on that level were given at a time when Iskcon was following his agenda and his instructions. If that is no longer the case and the rubber stamped gurus of Iskcon can no longer take devotees further down the path, then many will leave and go to all sorts of different personalities. As they did with B.R. Sridhar Maharaja before he passed away and are doing now with Narayan Maharaja. This has happened, it is happening and it will continue to happen and there is nothing you, Iskcon, the GBC and Sivarama Swami can do about it.[/p]

[p]
I believe there are some good online english courses in basic english comprehension, try googling it![/p]

I hoped the discussion wouldn't descend into personal attacks but it seems to occur with most topics here. My motivation behind the post was to discover whether the GBC has an official policy on it's senior devotees associating with other Sannyasis outside of ISKCON - in this case Srila Narayana Maharaja.

rasa108:

I hoped the discussion wouldn't descend into personal attacks but it seems to occur with most topics here. My motivation behind the post was to discover whether the GBC has an official policy on it's senior devotees associating with other Sannyasis outside of ISKCON - in this case Srila Narayana Maharaja.

[p]
Yes well when people accuse me of attacking Srila Prabhupada and they have not even comprehended or read my post correctly that is also a very offensive personal attack and a very stupid one. If people are going to post here and make personal attacks they should make doubly sure they completely read someones post and understand and if they cannot do that then they simply should not be posting here.[/p]

[p]
If you wish to have a committee decide on who you can listen to or associate with then you are subscribing to a sectarian organistaion "bigoted adherence to a factional viewpoint". [/p]

[p]
The GBC are a management committee, they are all about control and they care about numbers of devotees and protecting their empire and when the real thing comes along.you can bet they don't want anyone visiting or hearing from someone who is a self effulgent Gaudia Vaisnava who is not from Iskcon. The interesting thing is some Iskcon Sannyas's that visit NM if they see Iskcon devotees there they give them a hard time and say they should not be visiting NM.[/p]

[p]
Of course if you haven't read any of Srila Prabhupada's books and you don't know the philosophy well then maybe you shouldn't disturb someone like NM its all common sense really, you don't need some committee deciding on who you can and cannot speak or associate with. It becomes self apparent just by reading Srila Prabhupada's books.[/p]

[p]
However the GBC is stuck between a rock and hard place if they deny the right of devotees to visit NM and the truth gets out that NM is in awe and very respectful of Srila Prabhupada and has put him in the centre and his depth and mood are way deeper than what you will find anywhere in Iskcon it places them in a bad light of denying access to the real thing.[/p]

[p]
The GBC are seeking a reconciliation with NM to stop the exodus to his camp. Personally I couldn't give two hoots what the GBC says or does at best they can only be a management committee of the physical institution, they have proven historically that they fail time and time again in either making decisions or simply not making any decisions. People, committees and institutions have the power over you that you allow them to have.[/p]

[p]
Sri Krishna in The Bhagavad Gita gives you the permission to seek out a genuine spiritual master, thats all the permission you need![/p]

The other guy who was killed there was Chakradhari ... not Chakrapani. Dhari .. Pani .... either way ... he was murdered by Daruka and Tirtha in a very gruesome and horrific attack. Chakradhari, who was at one time an avid supporter and follower of Kirtanananda and a long-time resident of New Vrindaban, began to question Kirtanananda's policies and worse yet -- got into a money dispute with him. Then Chakradhari made the mistake of having an affair with Daruka's wife, Vrishni.

If all that wasn't bad enough both Chakradhari's young son and Daruka's young son were found dead inside an old discarded refrigerator. They were playing inside it and the door closed on them and they suffocated. It's actually illegal to leave a refrigerator lying around like that. A rope has to be tied around it so the door doesn't open. Anyway, Daruka, in his grief, somehow blamed Chakradhari for that. Was Radhanatha implicated in that? Possibly. However, it's a fact that Radhanatha was deeply implicated in the Sulocana affair. His reasoning was that he and others in New Vrindaban were convinced that Sulocana was out to not only ruin Kirtanananda's reputation and blaspheme him everywhere he went and to everyone he met -- but Sulocana also planned to either murder Kirtanananda himself or hire somebod to do it. So the justification was "we had to get him before he got to Kirtanananda." Back then Sulocana was considered a disgruntled ex-devotee whose main complaint was that his wife refused to leave New Vrindaban with him along with his children ... and Kirtanananda was considered a pure devotee. Not just a pure devotee -- his followers in New Vrindaban were convinced that he was the only rightful successor to Srila Prabupada. Some people even convinced themselves that Kirtanananda was an incarnation of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. The insanity that went on especially back in the late 70's and early 80's there in New Vrindaban was unreal. Surreal. Radhanatha was right in the middle of the whole thing; however, when it became clear that Kirtanananda was falling from grace and was about to be ousted from ISKCON Radhanatha wisely began to distance himself from his one-time mentor and idol. As far as I'm concerned -- it's all understandable and forgivable given the time, place and circumstance but what isn't acceptable is the fact that Radhanatha is not forthcoming and honest about it. According to him -- he did nothing wrong -- was never in any illusion about Kirtanananda -- had nothing at all to do with any of the corruption -- and remained aloof from it all. That simply is not true. It's dishonest. It's a smokescreen. Why does he feel the need to play the game of politics, diplomacy and intrigue when it comes to those subjects? I'd have a lot more respect for him if he would just admit his part in all of it which includes the fact that he remained a blinded obsequious sycophant to Kirtanananda right up until the last minute when the sky began to fall in on the whole trip there. Honest and humble? Nope -- that's for the little people ... not for the big appointed gurus who write books and walk around with folded palms like some humble caricature of Mahatma Gandhi, telling delightful little stories. I even heard him give a talk in which he greatly exaggerated his personal association with Srila Prabhupada which was all but nonexistent. (how Prabhupada looked right at him from the Vyasa Adana when he said this and that .. and how Radhanatha just knew Prabhupada was speaking to him personally ... yada yada yada). Where is the maturity? Where is the integrity? Where is the honesty? Where is the humility? It's all so embarrassing that he has become the poster boy for today's ISKCON. That's the other thing. He sometimes distances himself from ISKCON and sometimes raises the ISKCON banner --- according to whichever posture and position is most beneficial for his self promotion at the time. He's a class act. But that's what it is ... an act.

Okay -- it's your turn sgd. Let's hear how envious I am.

Seems like all Vaisnava qualities are disappearing from this discussion.

May I ask if either of the last two comment makers were there at that time in NV? Maybe so, I wasn't myself.

If not, or even if so, then why also must these other persons quoted be the absolute authority on the history and personal motivations of persons at that time?
I question whether all the deeply frustrated remarks and anger such as found there are able to offer any kind of accurate perception. No doubt terrible things took place, but who says this is the absolute true version of all the persons involved?

There are many accounts from others who were also there at that time which defend the honesty and sincerity of Srila Radhanath Swami.
Not to mention a thorough police investigation in which the officers in charge decided against any involvement of Radhanath Swami with any crimes at NV.

If, in order to preach one must be empowered by Krsna, then why such huge success for Maharaj if he is indeed guilty of such crimes? And I am not talking of material success or big projects, but just the ability to touch tens of thousands of individuals hearts and infuse them with pure ambitions and pure devotion. One who visits Mumbai temple is completely swept away by the qualities of the vaisnavas there. Good fruits do not come from a rotten tree.
Personally, I am not a sentimentalist, neither am I ready to lose control of my tongue or typing fingers due to frustration and anger. I am not an advanced devotee, having little experience, yet still I will not lower myself to such degrading criticism and offenses as we are finding here.
Hare Krishna.

karapurnam said:
"Seems like all Vaisnava qualities are disappearing from this discussion."

response: including honesty?
>

"either of the last two comment makers were there at that time in NV? Maybe so, I wasn't myself."

response: i was.
>
"I question whether all the ...remarks..offer any kind of accurate perception."

response: on the basis of "i wasn't there and i don't know."?

>
"No doubt terrible things took place, but who says this is the absolute true version of all the persons involved? "

response: what has ISKCON done about these "terrible things that took place"? is this the proper course of action? for those who rejected the lawsuit settlement offer, what will satisfy them and when will ISKCON face those responsibilities?

>
"There are many accounts from others who were also there at that time which defend the honesty and sincerity of Srila Radhanath Swami."
response: please document any such reports and ask would they be willing to stand before The Deities and make such untrue statements.

>
"Not to mention a thorough police investigation in which the officers in charge decided against any involvement of Radhanath Swami with any crimes at NV."
response: actually, the story that the local police and FBI offered was that "sometimes some of them just slip through the cracks", far less than "a clean bill of healthg" regarding non involvement. since the only restriction on radhanath's return to ISKCON was that he not be indicted any further for his NVC era activities, his fathers legal package with the chicago FBI office assured radhanath's safe return to ISKCON. the assumption that the real estate assets left in the wake of the kirtanananda ousting would revert back to iSKCON on radhanaths reinstatement was not and cannot be carried out. no quid pro quo, i'm afraid.
>

"Personally, I am not a sentimentalist, "
response: time will tell.

By the way --- my oldest son and two of my daughters were sexually molested in New Vrindaban. You wanna quote scripture to me now? You self righteous sons of bitches make me sick talking about Vaisnava etiquette. How dare you? What will I hear next -- that it was their karma? Until your kids are raped in the dead of night by some asshole wearing saffron -- then you can bring on Vaisnava qualities that are disappearing from this discussion.

> Rather than spewing venom everywhere, do something!

Imho, this is the crux of the issue. The perpetrators were specific persons and if they're known, nonaction of the harmed ones has a continued entangling effect on them. Either forgive or act; passive criticism is a sign of impotency, like a barking of dogs.

Wow, I took a moment to check what's been happening here after some time away, and I see it hasn't changed a bit.

The discussion reminds me of 2005 at Gita-nagari, when a few GBC applied for an exemption from the Child Protection Office for one devotee who had been found guilty of child molestation to come and lead kirtan while Bhakti Tirtha Swami was dying. As I understand it, it was Radhanatha and Malati who petitioned the CPO on BTS's behalf, and the CPO granted an exemption allowing the devotee to lead kirtan while BTS was leaving his body. I couldn't imagine why BTS would want that, but whatever, that was his wish.

As it happened, the slight waiver of the CPO's restrictions (which were never really enforced anyway) was taken practically as a full pardon allowing unrestricted activity. One scene that struck me as very disturbing, which I saw twice, was seeing Radhanatha sitting on the Vyasaasana lavishly glorifying this devotee, who had lost the appeal of his case with the CPO around the same time. BTS did the same, but it seemed more excusable due to his state of mind. I remember Radhanatha glorifying this devotee in such a way as to suggest that he was comparable to the devotee from Lord Caitanya's pastimes whom he was named after. How can someone be an unrepentant child molester and a great devotee at the same time?

Since my wife was on the Child Protection Team, and I a community board member, we felt it our duty to investigate how this devotee was invited to our commmunity without even any notice given to the community concerning his child molestation issues. We requested to meet with Radhanatha Swami about it, but someone decided my wife could meet but I could not. We objected that this was not proper, and the meeting never occurred. Instead we were condemned and shunned for expressing our concerns.

A month or two later, someone brought up the subject in a devotee e-mail forum, and it was suggested that if Radhanatha befriends somebody, that person must be pure and faultless. When I said a supposed saint befriending a child molester might be reason to wonder if the 'pure devitee' isn't as pure as previously thought, I was immediately banned from the forum.

Well, I don't intend to get back into the mess here, but I just felt like saying that. hari bol.