Not signed in (Sign In)

Vanilla 1.1.10 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome Guest!
Want to take part in these discussions? If you have an account, sign in now.
If you don't have an account, apply for one now.
  1.  
    Why place the blame for reinitiation on the guru? Why place the blame on anybody? When someone wants to take a formal initiation from another guru it is their business alone. Our tradition has become ridicoulously guru-centric.
    • CommentAuthormanasi_seva
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2010 edited
     
    VEDA you did not explain your knowledge of "Jadurani dd >> Shyamarani dd" that you put forward. As was asked of you before do you really know her? and the details surrounding her name? or re-initiation as you put fourth? It seems Portnoy does know some more details and there was no so called "re-initiation" involved.

    It is very common in Bengal and India in general especially in the village areas that people of your own age and standing may use your name, but people who are younger or older than you will use a different name to address you and quite often it can be a unique name, a pet name or nick name.

    SGD you are not being very clear and you have not put any detail forward (other than names) about any so called "re-initiations" of Srila Prabhupada disciples. Prabhupada disciples that take shelter of NM maybe awarded different names but that is a name based on their special relationship (shiksha) with NM. But that is not re-initiation or denying their eternal relationship with Srila Prabhupada. SGD NM is talking about the international society for Krishna Conciosness that started with Krishna and was continued by Sriman Mahaprabhu and all of his followers and most pre-eminently by Srila Prabhupada, he is not talking about the Institution, again you read but you don't comprehend.

    Non Prabupada disciples that have for whatever reason rejected their Iskcon or other guru generally may take full initiation but that is simply considered initiation.

    All I have seen so far in this forum is accusations and innuendos and zero evidence of any wrong doing by N.M. Not something I would use to start blaspheming a Gaudia Vaisnava in good standing.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2010
     
    Will somebody please put a muzzle on this idiot!
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2010
     
    Do you really think anybody is going to read all that crap you just wrote, New Zeland Das? You're wasting your time -- which brings me to the obvious question that if you're the great front line sankirtana preacher that you constantly claim you are -- how is it that you have so much free time to spend on the Internet. Just at this one website you obviously spend hours and hours every single day. You never write about your daily experiences of preaching and distributing books and the wonderful feelings one gets from turning people on to Krishna consciousness. Why is that? All I ever heard from you in all this time was that you and a few of your kids sold sunglasses one day. Sankirtana devotees love to talk about the people they meet on the streets, the programs they put together for chanting and preaching, going out chanting in public and distributing Bhagavad-gitas and Krishna Books. Why is it that you never ever ever try to inspire us in this way? Instead you fumble away at your keyboard repeating the same mindless banter day after day; hour after hour and sometimes minute after minute. Even if you were a quick thinker and speedy typiest I'd have to guess that you're spending many hours every day right here -- and somehow I don't get the impression that you are a quick thinker nor a fast typist. So what's really going on there in New Zealand, little buddy? I think you've been yanking our chains and making claims that aren't true. I doubt seriously that you ever even leave your house. Why not give us the name of somebody who can vouch for you? Come on, oh best of the ISKCON team players. You ask everyone what team they are on and which ISKCON authority and center they serve. Why don't you answer your own questions. I'm curious and maybe others are, too.
    • CommentAuthormanasi_seva
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2010 edited
     
    SGD I don't hate you, "Hongi" ... you will know what that means...and accept my humble obeisances.

    Nothing delights me more than when I see the Maori Haka its ancient tradition at its best. Before the west started dominating everything.

    To be honest your dogmatic ways and one eyed Iskcon Institution mindedness drives me up that wall, but I still don't hate you. I just see you as a person that needs a fuller more richer experience of KC than what is offerered within a defensive institution that has lost its way.

    Actually we are on the same team as you. I respect that you are from an ancient Maori clan and I really respect that you are sharing that with us.
    At worst see me not as a rival clan but as cousin clans the same as your own, but with new respectful uncles that we have discovered. Yes we honour and respect the new uncles for it would be offensive to do otherwise no? but we shall never stop worshiping the head of our internal clan Srila Prabhupada before we worship anyone else...at least that is how I feel...Any kirtan I sing or prayer I make, it always begins with Srila Prabupada's.

    This movement some say started with Sriman Mahaprabhu others say Krishna, of course Srila Prabhupada is the pre-eminent Gaudia Vaisnava devotee of Mahaprabhu of this Yuga, that is written into history, and will always be so, and he is our saviour, I have met not one devotee that would argue this.

    Srila Prabhupada was like the shining sun and it pains me to this day that I was so sinful and so unfortunate not to take his darshan, that is my misfortune. The Srila Prabhupada disciples are so fortunate for they had his darshan. But as the sun goes down and darkness prevails we are all put to the test, during the darkness many bad things have happend which has tested everyones faith.

    We love Srila Prabhupada and want nothing more than to see him glorified more than anyone, after all he is our saviour. No one came to the west to save us but he did. I think it is great that your whole family are devotees and it honours you the head of the family, that your family follows you and Srila Prabhpada.

    As you look to defend the walls of Iskcon which I perfectly understand, myself and I know others here see Krishna Consciousness to be very broad and encompass many devotees of Sriman Mahaprabhu not only within the institution called Iskcon. It is a spiritual family not some club that a select few can sell tickets to attend.

    The fact is we are not adversaries or in battle against each other, we are on the same team its just a matter of realizing it.

    Hare Krishna SGD all glories to Srila Prabhupada.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2010 edited
     
    Did you ever see the movie "Once Were Warriors?" That's one of the most powerful movies I have ever seen. In fact -- I heard that in many residential drug and alcohol rehabs it's required viewing. Quite frankly, what little I know of modern day New Zealand is from that movie. Also many years ago I engaged in an ongoing correspondence with a very nice girl who moved form Spain to Dunedin. She was very attracted to Krishna consciousness and had begun reading Srila Prabhupada's books and chanting before she ever met a devotee or walked into a temple.

    Speaking of temples. In 1970 Srila Prabhupada awarded sannyas to four of his disciples. Aside from Kirtanananda they were the very first sannyasis in the movement. Anyway - after a few months went by all four of them were sent away on Srila Prabhupada's order due to disobedience and misrepresenting the teachings of His Divine Grace. Some time passed and gradually all four prodigal sons did return to Prabhupada's ISKCON family. One of them -- Brahmananda Swami -- had begun preaching, chanting and distributing books in a park in Coconut Grove, Florida -- near Miami Beach. He wrote to Srila Prabhupada and described how he was going every day to that park much like Srila Prabhupada did in Thompkins Square Park in New York when he first began his mission in America. Srila Prabhupada replied to his letter saying, "I am very happy to hear that you have established a temple there in Miami. He further explained that stones, marble, buildings ... were not the essence of what constitutes a temple since temple really means preaching center. Since Brahmananda was preaching and chanting, distributing books and even some prasadam ---- Srila Prabhupada considered that to a bona fide temple.

    There are many centers and temples throughout the world and not all of them are listed in Back To Godhead magazine. This was Srila Prabhupada's idea -- that eventually householders branch out into the world -- into communities and towns all over -- and make Krishna the center of their lives as they raise their children, work at their jobs and live their lives. His vision was all inclusive and universal. ISKCON, in the final analysis, is a living concept, a way of life and wherever there are aspiring Vaisnavas who are following the instructions and teachings of Srila Prabhupada and spreading the message to others --- that is ISKCON. In this regard also I don't think Narayana Maharaja was being disrespectful or offensive to Srila Prabhupada. He was simply pointing out that fallacy of thinking on a kanishta sectarian platform and not perceiving the fact that Prabhupada's ISKCON is a branch of the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya. But it's irrelevant. I don't think it's to anyone's benefit to split hairs and analyze everything Narayana Maharaja does or says in order to engage in some debate about whether he's pure or not pure, envious, ambitious ... this or that .... these things are not for us to dwell on.

    One last comment if I may. Bickering, battling, back-biting, barking at each other is all sense gratification and mental speculation. It's to no avail. I am guilty of it and I know that it is foolish endeavor and gets us nowhere. Moreover -- imagine the person who comes upon this website to learn about Krishna consciousness. Whew!!! I'm almost wondering if maybe certain topics should be limited to only registered account holders??? Gaudiya Discussions and it's step-child Gaudiya Repercussions utilize that concept (and by the way -- I found both of those websites to be very repulsive).
  2.  
    sri_govinda_das:Sorry Kula- pavanna we are iskconites.....life after life we will follow srila Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada and his preaching mission and flavour....not some pretender who attempts to twist our guru's legacy and then trys to usurp his position........
    This is the way you see it, but others see it differently, and it is their choice. If I were to chose between NM and Radhanatha M. for example, I would choose NM without a moment's hesitation. All those 'guru wars' only discourage new people from taking up Mahaprabhu's mission seriously. From all of the 700 verses in Gita only a handfull speak about the guru - less than 1% - the rest is about Krsna and the process of reaching Him. But in Iskcon it is almost the other way - it is all about guru. No wonder so many people see us as a cult.
  3.  
    Portnoy, I just visited the Gaudia Discussions website,

    http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/

    I think its an awesome website, what did you find so replusive about it? I haven't checked out the threads yet...maybe thats where the hairy stuff is. It seems to be a bit of a free for all including some stuff in there re: the Siddha Pranali group which I don't discount. But thats what you get with the online digital age its all there right in front of you.

    In the dark days of Iskcon they hid everything, when I first went to India, Mayapur & Vrindaban in 1981. The Iskconites were so much into control when we visited Bhaktisiddanta's ashram they physically stood in-front of us stopping us from looking at his books. We could visit the temple but no bookies lookies! Which did not work, it created more of a mystery.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2010 edited
     
    One more time sonny boy. The name Syamarani is a nickname that Narayana Maharaja calls her and out of her love and respect for her siksa guru she goes by both names. She was never never never never (you do know the meaning of the word never?) NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER ... NOT EVER NOT EVER NOT EVER .... DIDN"T HAPPEN, NEVER HAPPENED, NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO ... NEVER REINITIATED!!!!!!!

    Learn how to read and listen you fucking idiot!!!!!

    I don't know why I even waste my time because you are such a fucking fucking fucking ignoramus with shit for brains .... She was never re-initiated so shut the fuck up you fucking fucking idiot. God damn you. What is your major malfunction? You are a fucking retard. A retard. You are retarded. Go get some help. I am sixty four years old and in all my years and travels and all the thousands and thousands of people I have met and known you are the biggest fucking idiot I have ever come across. Congratulations! You win the prize! No more. I will not respond to you anymore. My blood pressure can't handle it. You don't listen. You don't learn. You are stuck on STUPID. Fucking stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2010
     
    Manasi Seva: The reason I did not like Gaudiya Discussions is because it was run by a youngster named Madhava Das (who was living in India and who later became a Buddhist and is now pretty much an atheist living back in Finland where he's from originally). I think he started out in ISKCON as a Harikesa disciple. Can you imagine? Poor guy! Anyway he figured out finally that he was sold a bill of goods by the organization that still uses the name ISKCON with their appointed and elected gurus ..... and he then went to some Baba Hari (I believe was his name) for initiation and he also took to the line of thinking (which generally began with Lalit Prasad, the brother of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur) that both Gaudiya Math and ISKCON were not in the line of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and were renegade unbonafide branches due to deviations on the part of Saraswati Thakur and subsequently all his disciples including Srila Prabhupada. So although very learned in sastra those people couldn't get much more offensive. They were the most dangerous because they were drawing people in with the name "Gaudiya Discussions" and then before someone even knew what was happening they were being spoonfed poison. Gaudiya Discussions doesn't exist anymore and they took down the site years ago but then decided to bring back some of the more popular threads in an archives setting which is probably what you found.

    Gaudiya Repercussions on the other hand was begun by ex-ISKCONers who left, lost their faith, felt bitter and cheated and wanted a forum to process their feelings and thoughts of having been lied to and cheated and sucked into a cult that they finally figured out was not only NOT the absolute truth -- but was a bunch of lies. They have a good time making fun of everything about Krishna consciousness, including and sometimes especially Srila Prabhupada and his books and teachings. They're not as sophisticated in their offensiveness --- but it's not a pretty sight/site.
  4.  
    Thanks Portnoy for the nice explanation.

    SGD, What is so obvious is that you do not read, comprehend or know how to use a forum environment, and it appears that you never read the thread from last point of where you posted. It seems any words of praise we spoke to you and respect of your Maori culture completely fell on deaf ears, and in return you ask people to submit to the train wreck that is Iskcon and vile creatures like Mr Charles Bacis.

    You need to understand SGD the links you are reading here: http://www.harekrsna.org/gbc/themes/Jadurani_REFUTATION_Syamarani.htm

    Stated the following "[PADA: FOUNDER ACHARYA. First of all, notice the immediate disrespect to Srila Prabhupada. He gave "Jadurani" that name, and now she has been in essence "re-initiated" by Narayana Maharaja with a new name -- "Shyamarani."

    But in Syamarani dd's own words found here: http://www.vnn.org/world/WD0006/WD25-6049.html

    Is the following statement:

    "My first question to Syamarani dd after her lecture, was, "did you get reinitiated ? ", to which she "strongly" replied that, "no, it is a great offense to take reinitiation".."My new name is like an affectionate nickname"."

    Which is exactly what Portnoy said!

    SGD this totally refutes both of what you and VEDA have offered up on this subject. Both of you are completely un-informed on this subject, neither of you do much in the way of investigation to get to the facts. Yet both of you stroke each others egos and pretend that you are some sort of authorities here.

    Its sad to see that what was once a glorious Iskcon when Srila Prabhupada was here has sunk to such lows that it swamps its followers in so much mis-information and they happily swallow it all without question.
  5.  
    How does it feel to be revealed before the very few people that visit this forum SGD as a complete moron?

    You are simply quoting Iskcon puppets and all of the mis-information that suits their agenda of the day. You wont even accept Syamarani devi dasi's own words that she was not re-initiated!

    Of course she can be one NM's disciples she is taking shiksha from him you idiot! and she took dishka and continues to take shiksha as well from Srila Prabhupada and remains his disciple.

    Why is it that you cannot add 2 + 2? It really isn't that hard, but I guess you were snoozing when the brains were being handed out.

    Enough...believe what you want, I couldn't careless. One thing is for sure you could not convince me of anything, your logic is totally flawed or in your case vacant like your intelligence.

    Please do not respond to me anymore SGD it ends here.
    •  
      CommentAuthorportnoy
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2010
     
    That's it -- as long as this guy continues posting here I've got to go .. and I would advise everyone else to also leave. Do you really want to be associated with this idiot? If you aren't embarrassed by the thought of an inquisitive seeker coming here for information and reading the crap this guy writes - as am I - then something's wrong. A few of us have tried to shut him up and slap him down but he's like one of those bozo punching bags that just keeps on popping back up with a stupid frozen smile on his painted face. This could be a serious and useful website but as long as a moron like him insists on taking over every meaningful thread -- contributing the most in quantity and the least in quality -- this place will remain a sewer of misinformation and misrepresentation. Somebody needs to take the responsibility. I don't know who runs this thing but you really ought to rethink your purpose.
    •  
      CommentAuthorVEDA
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2010
     
    > SGD this totally refutes both of what you and VEDA have offered up on this subject. Both of you are completely un-informed on this subject, neither of you do much in the way of investigation to get to the facts.

    It doesn't. I only offered the fact (which you missed) that the change of name is the aspect of pancasamskara.Then I offered the above PADA link where it's suggested that SP disliked such nicknames. At least I'm not aware that he ever used them for any disciples of other gurus who may have approached him for siksa. If you can find some, it'd support that NM's approach is in sync with SP. So far I don't see much in common in them.

    In the same text J./S. says she wasn't re-initiated. I didn't miss it. But that's the only part you like so you present it as your 'investigation'. No, the real investigation would be to get personal testimonies of persons who were present when NM gave S. her new (nick)name and if any other elements of diksa were present or not.

    > Yet both of you stroke each others egos and pretend that you are some sort of authorities here.

    Haha. This fits you and portnoy. You're the only real tandem here, completely in sync with adhominem vulgarity and anti-ISKCON agenda (against ToS). Since you appreciate GR, why are you still here? This is a proper place for you to cultivate your mentality. I appreciate portnoy's dislike of that forum though.

    If you want to be authority here (or anywhere) become useful. It's that simple. This forum is about pariprasna, so offer Krsna jnana and Krsna katha. But so far you proved yourself only as authority on vulgarity and hate.

    > Its sad to see that what was once a glorious Iskcon when Srila Prabhupada was here has sunk to such lows that it swamps its followers in so much mis-information and they happily swallow it all without question.

    You're like the atheists and former theists who can't stop talking about God and church they left. Kamsa mentality.
    •  
      CommentAuthormaah!
    • CommentTimeFeb 10th 2010
     
    All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
    Hare Krishna.

    Thank you Sri Govinda for posting those shocking, unbelievably deluded quotes of NM! Like their guru, those who follow NM give lip-service to the glories of Srila Prabhupada, but we should not be fooled. They have their own opinion about the usefulness of what they are doing but because their opinion countradicts the instructions of the Acarya, it is useless.

    Anyone who loves Srila Prabhupada or what he has given to us and reads those shocking quotes will clearly understand what NM's actual position is. Nobody has to expose him, he exposes himself. Those who think Srila Prabhupada is 'dead and gone', 'out of sight-out of mind', who are faithless and ungrateful, who do not understand our philosophy of absolute surrender and eternal service are the unfortunate ones, and NM is similarly unfortunate for having 'acquired' such persons. Really, it is a blessing for our movement that NM attracts those kind of persons out of our lives so we can focus fully on absolute surrender at the lotus feet of Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga.

    Srila Prabhupada told us, "Don't be surprised at who goes, be surprised at who stays."

    The Sri Guru Acarya's instruction: So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them. This attempt was made previously by them, especially Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them.” Srila Prabhupada.

    The Sri Guru Acarya's vision and encouragement: "Their policy has been all along to suppress me and take credit for himself. Their proposal for cooperation is a myth. They haven’t done anything which is cooperative. You know in a recent article they managed to write in such a way that Madhava is doing the world movement and we are his subordinate. From the beginning that has been their mentality. So there is no possibility of cooperation with them. Rather you should avoid strictly meeting with them. They are not after preaching but material gain and reputation and adoration. Otherwise why they are non cooperating with me? So no cooperation is possible. Do not think or indulge in loose talks. Be careful always. Let us do the duty of propagation sincerely and seriously on our own principles. Krsna and Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura are our only hope and they and helping us." Srila Prabhupada.

    The Sri Guru Acarya's deliberation: "The order of the spiritual master is the active principle in spiritual life. Anyone who disobeys the order of the spiritual master immediately becomes useless. Persons who strictly follow the orders of the spiritual master are useful in executing the will of the Supreme, whereas persons who deviate from the strict order of the spiritual master are useless.
    Paddy is mixed with straw at first, and one must fan it to separate the paddy from the straw. This example given by Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami is very appropriate. In the case of the Gaudiya Matha members, one can apply a similar process. There are many disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, but to judge who is actually his disciple, to divide the useful from the useless, one must measure the activities of such disciples in executing the will of the spiritual master." Srila Prabhupada
    Hare Krishna.
 
Powered By ISKCON Tech